Comments on: Vegan Cheese is Just as Inhumane as Dairy Cheese

By: shreena

shreena — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 13:31:22 +0000

“currently”

“veganism is a constant learning curve”

were you born a completely perfect vegan?

By: Elaine Vigneault

Elaine Vigneault — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 00:27:39 +0000

“I am an omni ”

Exactly.

By: shreena

shreena — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 20:07:55 +0000

But humans ARE exploited animals aren’t they? And inorganic methods remove habitats for animals, or damn straight kill them with the machinery/chemicals.

I am an omni currently, but I try to steer clear of animal-derived products. Why? Because whilst killing an animal is horrible (note I’m not saying there’s nothing wrong with it), keeping it alive in a state of suffering is infintely worse, as it’s kept alive to suffer, and doesn’t get to be free from that until it’s utterly “useless”. And it seems that veganism is a constant learning curve – as soon as vegans discover that something they consume is bad for creatures, they stop. That’s not hypocritical, that’s education. I’m sure if one day we discover that the soya bean is being overcultivated and killing things, there’ll be a similar re-evaluation.

By: Elaine Vigneault

Elaine Vigneault — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 02:44:33 +0000

My criticism is NOT that there aren’t significant problems with palm oil.

My criticism is that “Vegan Cheese is Just as Inhumane as Dairy Cheese” is a FALSE statement.

1. “Vegan Cheese” may or may not have palm oil. As pointed out elsewhere, Dr. Cow vegan cheese or homemade vegan cheese made from nuts is palm oil free.

2. Nothing about veganism includes vegan cheese. But when you criticize certain vegans for eating certain vegan cheeses, omnis who read this only hear what they want to hear, which is “vegans are hypocrites.”

3. I, like LUSH, seek to use very little palm oil and to source it from sustainable, fair trade sources. I don’t feel that a complete boycott of all palm oil is appropriate because it doesn’t incentivize fair trade, organic, sustainable palm oil production. That’s why it only makes sense to boycott the bad palm oil.

4. I buy fair trade products when available, just like organic when available. But organic and fair trade are NOT like veganism because veganism is about abolishing the exploitation of animals, period. It’s NOT about voting with your dollar or fork to urge farmers to do it differently, which is what the organic and fair trade labels are about.

Nuance is not the enemy.

By: Kestrel

Kestrel — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 13:29:12 +0000

Intent matters. Yes it matters, but when you find out your intentions have terrible consequences that defeat what you wanted to achieve in the first place, then you have to regroup and change your habits.

The vegan community needs to start having massive dialogues educating people that no animal products doesn’t mean no harm to animals and in the case of palm oil products in fake meats and cheeses and butter, it is nothing more than criminal.

Then once we get into the non-harm in the products that mimic animal products the other issue vegans need to address is why they need fake animal products, and we need to address soaps and cleaners and other products and bird-friendly coffee and not buying winter vegetables from Mexico and South Smerica with awful pesticides … and all those things …
Ethical living means CONSTANT and VIGILANT examination of choices and many vegans want to live in their dumb little utopia of “no animal products” … aren’t I great? Well no, you’re not but you certainly are arrogant. You’re idiots just like the rest of the arrogant people on this plant.

So next time you’re all slathering Earth Balance on your toast, look at the vat of death on your counter and engage your brain.

Meanwhile good companies like LUSH cosmetics point out that even finding “sustainable” palm oil sources isn’t good enough:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/16565639/Whats-Wrong-With-Palm-Oil-Lush-Factsheet

By: nothoney

nothoney — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 12:04:40 +0000

Way not to see the forest of conifer species for the individual trees. I suppose, one day, when a species of great apes is extinct it’ll be too late to worry about the individuals. Be comforted with your nuanced ethical philosophy while the planet burns around you.

By: Elaine Vigneault

Elaine Vigneault — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 00:53:23 +0000

“Yes, dairy cows suffer, but they’re not going to be EXTINCT any time soon.”

Woah, that’s environmentalism, not animal rights. I don’t give a damn about species; I care about individuals.

Listen, there is a reason that there is a difference between manslaughter and homicide: intent matters, intervening causes matter… there are other factors.

If palm oil literally came from grieving orangutans whose babies had been stolen and stuffed in tiny crates, then you might have a better argument. But for the time being, the levels of indirection make some food choices (non-vegan) less ethically justifiable than others (palm oil).

Sorry I don’t subscribe to your particular vision of environmentalist consequentialism. My ethical philosophy is a bit more nuanced.

By: Kestrel

Kestrel — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 11:10:33 +0000

This is typical of the kind of simplistic thinking that goes on with people who think no animal products means animal friendly. Vegans have a moral right and obligation to examine each of the things they eat right for the harm they cause. Choosing products with palm oil I would argue creates even more orphans and causes more suffering than dairy. Not only does it create the direct horrific death in the rainforests through being slaughter or incinerated and slow death through habitat loss, it creates other atrocities such as orphans orangs being dragged off into illegal markets and elephants having wire snares eat into their flesh causing untold agony and a unspeakable death. They also put explosives in bait food for elephants now which does not kill them right away but leaves them to languish in agony.
Then there is the climate change consequence from razing the rainforest in that area which is cataastrophic for the rest of the species on the earth. Thousands of species in Africa dying of thirst, baby elephants perishing in droughts.
There is a real stupidity and I would even venture to say criminality behind this statement:
“Dairy is FAR worse than vegan cheese due to the simple fact that vegan cheese is indirectly and unintentionally harmful to animals whereas dairy cheese is directly and intentionally harmful to animals.”
Wake up and smell the coffee (bird friendly organic coffee btw, not the industrial swill that kills everything in its wake)

By: nothoney

nothoney — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 08:31:45 +0000

This is a perfect example of what I wrote about and my frustration with vegans who never consider the effects of their choices on ecosystems and wildlife. You think that deforestation for oil palm plantations isn't directly harmful to orangutans and other wildlife in SEA? then it's well past time you did some research and educated yourself. Vegan cheese, along with many other products containing palm oil, is contributing to the extinction of an entire species. Yes, dairy cows suffer, but they're not going to be EXTINCT any time soon. Read What's Wrong with Palm Oil? for a start.

By: Elaine Vigneault

Elaine Vigneault — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 04:01:33 +0000

I rarely eat vegan cheeses or meats, and I avoid oil as much as possible for health reasons, but it’s simply not accurate to say that “Vegan Cheese is Just as Inhumane as Dairy Cheese.” Nope.

There are degrees of responsibility, levels of indirection, intervening causes, and varied harms.

Dairy is FAR worse than vegan cheese due to the simple fact that vegan cheese is indirectly and unintentionally harmful to animals whereas dairy cheese is directly and intentionally harmful to animals.